tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post1639690805781309754..comments2023-03-28T08:31:00.696-07:00Comments on The Ibbenese Cartographer: The True Size of the NorthUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-38549182996599836842013-07-09T11:10:13.666-07:002013-07-09T11:10:13.666-07:00Thankfully, all of the projection calculations are...Thankfully, all of the projection calculations are done by a GIS software, in this case ArcMap. The software comes preloaded with hundreds of different commonly used projections. All I did overlay a map of Westeros onto a map of Earth, at at latitude I deemed appropriate. I told ArcMap that both maps were in the Mercator projection, and that I wanted to see it in a conic projection (in this case, Albers. If your interested, this is what is going on behind the scenes: http://www.epsg.org/guides/docs/g7-2.pdf<br /><br />Thankfully, I don't have to bother with that.Nathan Mosurinjohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07631557111472342587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-4061667311800100962013-07-07T12:48:56.866-07:002013-07-07T12:48:56.866-07:00Just a curiosity from a map creation outsider: wha...Just a curiosity from a map creation outsider: what method do you use to to make an accurate projection? I mean, how do you adjust proportions? What is your workflow.. do you use fixed mathematical formulae or some kind of geometrical interpretation?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03927179843160380355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-43844708838577486562013-05-19T15:04:47.347-07:002013-05-19T15:04:47.347-07:00Why do you suppose that the size mentioned by Robe...Why do you suppose that the size mentioned by Robert was exaggerated?Jamiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13636043501295415078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-20722441680891437112013-05-19T13:11:11.994-07:002013-05-19T13:11:11.994-07:00An interesting exercise would be to try and transp...An interesting exercise would be to try and transpose the flat Westeros map onto a globe, but retain the absolute distances as they currently are depicted. In my mind, this would expand the North over a number of extra degrees of longtitude compared to the South.<br /><br />This would retain the North's size, which is really beyond dispute. For example, it is 300 miles from Eastwatch to the Shadow Tower. It is also 300 miles as the crow flies from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell.<br /><br />These distances are given in the books, repeatedly. Clearly, therefore, the scale of the map remains the same, whether you go North or South. So the North is really as big as they say in the books.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03173813686329267837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-43178010575817389242013-05-19T11:28:28.175-07:002013-05-19T11:28:28.175-07:00Beyenne,
Yeah, like I said my assumptions are som...Beyenne,<br /><br />Yeah, like I said my assumptions are somewhat arbitrary. I chose and Earth sized planet because 1. it would make this analysis way easier and 2. I haven't really seen any evidence that it would be different. If the planet has the same gravity, and it is made out of similar materials to earth (we know iron is plentiful), then we can assume they are at least close to the same size. I'm not sure what distance to the sun has to do with this.<br /><br />On to your second point, yeah, again 60N is somewhat arbitrary. I thought that it seemed reasonable though, noting my justifications above. There are good reasons to move it both south and north, but I had to pick something. The concept that the north is as big as everything else combined comes from Robert, was trying to convince Ned and likely exaggerated, if even he knew the actual size of things. Likely not.<br /><br />You make fair points, and again, to make this work I had to pick some values for my assumptions. I think the values I chose are reasonable, but reasonably disputable. Nathan Mosurinjohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07631557111472342587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-24205027952491732212013-05-19T11:20:49.245-07:002013-05-19T11:20:49.245-07:00Yeah, I totally agree that the maps in the book ar...Yeah, I totally agree that the maps in the book aren't really Mercator. The maps, like you said, are more than likely an amalgamation of local maps. I would argue that these local maps would try to preserve direction at least as much as distance, however. Anyway, 'amalgamation of local maps' isn't a defined projection, so I had to pick something because I thought this would be a fun thought exercise. Mercator seemed (to me) like a good choice, there are other reasonable choices.Nathan Mosurinjohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07631557111472342587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-57419238373038258372013-05-19T07:28:50.853-07:002013-05-19T07:28:50.853-07:00You do realize that your main two assumptions are ...You do realize that your main two assumptions are greatly flawed:<br /><br />1) The size of the planet on which the series takes place is roughly the same size as Earth. If we are to take the TV show as canon, then we know the planet has at least the same gravity (and therefore mass) as Earth. <br /><br />Correctly assumed that gravity & mass of earth are the same, but size and distance from whatever star the planet is orbiting is hugely up for grabs. This planet could be two times further from their star than the Earth is from the Sun. Also the fact that the planet could easily be far more dense or less dense than Earth could greatly change the size of the planet easily.<br /><br /><br /><br />2) The Wall is positioned at 60° North Latitude. I chose this latitude because it is roughly where the southern extent of permafrost exists in Canada and continental Asia. We know The Gift is arable land, and areas north of the wall have regular snow even in the summer. <br /><br />Following on from the last point, permafrost could potentially exist much further north or much further South. What we do know as canon however is that:<br /><br />"The North is the largest region, nearly as large as the rest of the regions combined." - http://bit.ly/19Q1EX8<br /><br />This means that these figures need to be tweaked (or adjust the map to give this layout):<br /><br />The North: 415,000 sq. mi/1,070,000 sq. km<br />The Reach: 380,000 sq. mi/984,000 sq. km<br />The Realm: 1.6 million sq. mi/4.1 million sq. km<br /><br />This is what you should use as your main assumption. You did great work, don't get me wrong, I just like having great discussions with people I think are equally educated and scientifically precise.<br /><br />Basis: Use the ratio of North:Westeros as 2:1 and place Dorne on the equator and you should find the proper size of Westeros & then the rest of Westeros.<br /><br />(Nb. go ahead and use the earth as the same size as before, but the line of permafrost leave unknown at the moment)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12991795733991282959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-6917983233271200962013-05-19T07:06:15.349-07:002013-05-19T07:06:15.349-07:00GRRM has already said his seasons were magically d...GRRM has already said his seasons were magically driven. Little bit of a cop out. However I also read a report stating that if it wasn't magically driven it may just be part of a binary star system. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03200692978192770703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-58071642670465141402013-05-19T03:49:01.081-07:002013-05-19T03:49:01.081-07:00Lars Tiede
The Wall is arguably already too far N...Lars Tiede<br /><br />The Wall is arguably already too far North at 60 degrees North.<br /><br />Your reference to farming at 70 degrees North in Norway is interesting, but consider that the Arctic Treeline mostly ends at 66 degrees North, with some rare trees up to 70 degrees North in certain warmer than normal areas. The Haunted Forest extends 600 miles North of the Wall, and therefore the Arctic Treeline has to be taken as the edge of the Haunted Forest, placing the Wall hundreds of miles south of this line.<br /><br />Furthermore, even if there might be farming in northern Norway today, 70 degrees North was most certainly not considered good farmland in the Middle Ages where farming technology was far more primitive. In fact, almost all farming in Medieval Scandinavia was in its extreme southern parts.<br /><br />In my view 60 degrees North is the absolute northern limit for the Wall, with 55-58 degrees also possible.<br /><br />Regarding the South America comparison, this is to the entire continent of Westeros, including the unknown part of it that lies beyond the Wall. Hence the location of the Wall is irrelevant to the size comparison to South America. Also, this comparison is generally accepted to be to the LENGTH of South America, rather than to its surface area, as Westeros is mostly much narrower than South America, and hence is unlikely to match its surface area.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03173813686329267837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-30007557396918433552013-05-19T03:47:18.364-07:002013-05-19T03:47:18.364-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03173813686329267837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-28858008219988045822013-05-19T03:02:36.152-07:002013-05-19T03:02:36.152-07:00First of all, this was a nice post. The idea is in...First of all, this was a nice post. The idea is intriguing, and I enjoyed reading through it.<br /><br />But I have to bicker :)<br /><br />I find the assumption that "the wall is at 60 degrees north" problematic. Change it to a higher latitude, and you end up with bigger continents - which would be more consistent with the often heard "Westeros is about as big as south america".<br /><br />Why I think you could (or should) place the wall at a higher latitude: if you take europe and not america for figuring out at which latitude the wall might be, with your argument ("south of it arable, north of it not much so"), you could go about 10 degrees further north - farms exist in Norway as far up as 70 degrees north. Now, an east-west stretch of 300 miles (length of the wall) at 70 degrees latitude on a mercator projection looks much longer than the same stretch at 60 degrees. So if you place the wall at a higher latitude, the continents become bigger. Quite a bit bigger.<br /><br />Generally, you could just choose any latitude for the wall so that you end up with a Westeros that is about the same size as south america (these are the only two really good geography clues we have, right?). You can do that because with the weird seasons and such, it doesn't really matter whether you place the "south is arable land, north less so" border at 60 or 65 or 70 degrees latitude.Lars Tiedehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02205024046282597186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-74729949751326311972013-05-19T03:02:13.315-07:002013-05-19T03:02:13.315-07:00As Westeros is analogous to Europe, and Essos to t...As Westeros is analogous to Europe, and Essos to the Eurasian continent, would it be possible to get a map projection over that part of the world rather than the US and the Atlantic Ocean? I'd like to see if Dorne stretches down to Morocco, if Essos has overlaps with Turkey and Central Asia, and the like.Karl-Axelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17879340880635404937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-50655245839882548922013-05-19T02:23:12.422-07:002013-05-19T02:23:12.422-07:00The map of Westeros is not a Mercator map.
Using ...The map of Westeros is not a Mercator map.<br /><br />Using your analysis, you come to a total size for the North of 415,000 miles. Yet the scale bar of Westeros is in fact the Wall, which is located at the very top of the North, and it is confirmed to be 300 miles in length.<br /><br />Using the Wall as measuring stick, it is clear that the North is well in excess of 1 million square miles in size.<br /><br />The flaw, I think, in your approach, is the assumption that longtitude and latitude even exist as concepts in Westeros. The more likely answer is that the map of Westeros is simply strung together from hundreds of local maps.<br /><br />For example, locals will know that the Dreadfort and Karhold are say 300 miles apart as the crow flies, and draw the local map accordingly. Similarly, locals in the South will know that King's Landing and Storm's End are say 300 miles apart and draw the local map accordingly. Over millenia, all these dozens of local maps were added together to fashion a rough map of Westeros as a whole.<br /><br />Again this is shown as valid when Stannis states that Deepwood Motte is 300 miles from Winterfell as the crow flies. This is exactly to the scale of the canon map, where the length of the Wall exactly matches the distance between Deepwood and Winterfell.<br /><br />The key principle is that different points on the North/South axis do not align according to a fictional concept known in our world as longtitude. Instead, the map is based on absolute distances.<br /><br />What this will mean is that 1000 miles east-west in the North, equates to 1000 miles east-west in the South. But if it was transposed onto a globe, then the North would cover more degrees of longtitude than the South.<br /><br />Sure, navigation would be thrown totally haywire, but this would be consistent with the fact that almost no one wants to sail out of sight of land (as depicted by the amazement at Euron's "daring" feat of leaving sight of the shore to strike the Reach by suprise in Feast for Crows).<br /><br />To conclude, the canon maps are not Mercator maps, but simply actual depictions of distance that have no relation to consistent longtitude.<br /><br />The length of the Wall and the resultant size of the North proves that. 300 miles at the Wall remains 300 miles when measured between Deepwood Motte and Winterfell and remains 300 miles when depicted between King's Landing and Storm's End.<br /><br />May 19, 2013 at 2:21 AMAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03173813686329267837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-62282706746533615822013-05-19T02:21:27.345-07:002013-05-19T02:21:27.345-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03173813686329267837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-61535261142020654182013-05-19T02:13:49.726-07:002013-05-19T02:13:49.726-07:00An ice epoch, perhaps?An ice epoch, perhaps?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15609349057038435982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392671694350230220.post-70643249402942588182013-05-19T00:11:52.785-07:002013-05-19T00:11:52.785-07:00The size of the world is not necessarily the same ...The size of the world is not necessarily the same as earth to have to same gravity. Size and density determine surface gravity, so the planet could be smaller or larger depending on density. Also since the world of ASoIaF takes place on a world with no regular seasons it must have no axial tilt (though there must be something affecting it).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15330769541626470118noreply@blogger.com